If you’re thinking of joining Ashok Banker’s Epic India group…
…DON’T! Herewith, this is what happened to me, nary an hour ago, after a lovely chat with Alexis Fleming. The group only started functioning a week ago and is a place for discussing Indian epics in general, Indian culture, and so on. Now, my knowledge of Asian epics is woeful (I think I’ve mentioned that previously), so I was happy to join up, with the intention of lurking for a while and learning through osmosis. Well, today, I got the first email digest with a topic for discussion. And the question went:
I’d like to start a discussion on the character of Rama. How many of you agree that he was “Maryada Purshottam”? I don’t think he was, but that’s an entirely personal point of view. I feel his act of abandoning Seeta when she was pregnant with his children was enough to take away any glory that he deserved otherwise. I’d hate any man who did this to his wife; and to think that a king who had all the resources at his disposal to convince a dhobi of the real facts of Seeta’s abduction, it’s unforgivable, according to me.
Now, I don’t know what a Maryada Purshottam is, but the rest of the question sounded pretty interesting. And, besides, I was thinking of Guatama Buddha, and how he abandoned his family as well on his path to enlightenment, and was wondering if this is a common thread that crops up in Indian classic literature. But the moderator wasn’t quite so sanguine. He called the topic “old”, saying that everyone who “thought they’d read” the Ramayana came up with the same “tired” argument. One statement (from memory), went: “You yourself admit that you’ve only read two of the books of the Ramayana and yet you have already judged and condemned Rama!” And so it went on for several paragraphs.
Now, I thought this was all a little harsh. I mean, you’re a member of the group to begin a discussion and then when someone finally ponies up a question, they get slapped down. So I started with, “This will probably get me banned, but you’re not going to start a discussion by treating other people the way you’ve treated XXX [the person who posted the first question]“. Yes, it’s true, I rebuked the Moderator and pointed out that language such as “tired”, “old”, and statements about thinking you know, and so on, don’t really help a discussion as there are other, less value-laden ways to present the same information. I even gave an example of how to couch a reply to such a question without being so “superior” and “offhand” (my words). At the end, I reminded the Moderator that I was interested in learning about the Indian epics, about which I know very little myself, and concluded by saying that “there are no such things as stupid questions, only patronising answers”.
The answer came back in three parts:
- I was told I was being offensive and that if I wanted objectivity I should join a science forum! (I wasn’t asking for objectivity; I was asking for courtesy.)
- I was told I would not be banned from the group because everyone (”even you!”) are entitled to their own opinion … and then got banned from posting or even reading any messages! [EDIT: I've since left the group.]
- The next time I went to the group’s page (to re-read what I read and what the reply was), I was redirected to a pornography funnel site, www.offensive.com Hmmm. Nice.
So, if you’re interested in Indian epic literature (and it’s a very rich vein of love, battles, gods, morals and how flawed humanity reacts to the vicissitudes of powerful deities), don’t think you’ll find it with an Ashok Banker discussion group. Not only are the moderators lying, immature hypocrites, but it’s obvious they prefer Dogma (where they are the obvious gatekeepers to knowledge) to Discussion (where everyone is treated with respect).
POSTSCRIPT: You were wondering who “KS Augustin” was, Moderator? Well, congratulations! You’ve just found her!
POSTSCRIPT^2: Considering Mr Banker personally vetted each application for membership of the Epic India group, I’m assuming he also personally okayed the appointment of the moderators (who remain conveniently anonymous behind a generic handle, btw). I wonder what he would think of one of his approved members being directed to a pornography site at the first hint of dissent? Very tasteful.
Dear KS Augustin,
Another member of the (short-lived) EI Group sent me a link to this blog post by you. I don’t know how or why I’m being blamed personally for the unpardonable behaviour of what was essentially a volunteer moderator, i.e. another member of the group. I immediately “sacked” the person as moderator, and requested them to either treat other members with respect or leave the group. She has since left the group, but not before she managed to hack a couple of member IDs and do a little more damage. I don’t understand what her problem was either, but I can clearly tell you that I do NOT support such behaviour. As far as I can tell, you were most definitely not banned or barred in any way, and I instantly posted a clarification and explanation–but you had already quit the group (or been asked to quit by the Moderator in those brief hours, I’m not sure which) and were not around to read my messages. I also tried emailing you at the address with which you subscribed to the group, but got no reply.
I don’t know what else to do really. I did NOT personally vet each application–why would I? It’s meant to be a public discussion group for those interested in Indian culture, not merely my work, and the whole point is for it to be self-managed, i.e. run by members like yourself. The Moderator (who chose to remain anonymous, there was no requirement to do so) was a volunteer member I did not know from adam, but simply happened to be the person to volunteer and seemed quite nice and friendly at the time. I would be as likely to let you be a moderator or anyone else, if you asked.
I don’t know about any porn site, but surely you realize that I wouldn’t condone any such link being posted! I searched the links and page you mentioned but there was nothing pointing to a porn site. I can only assume it was done by the same Moderator/ex-member before I “sacked” her, and that Yahoo later corrected. Not really sure.
Anyway, I’m writing to tell you that not only do I respect every individual’s opinion, I most definitely do support your and every person’s right to express your opinion freely and without censure. But having said that, I don’t mean to be an autocrat and censure every post that comes in! THat would defeat the whole purpose of free speech, wouldn’t it? So if someone does say something offensive, I can only correct the person afterwards, as I did quite promptly in this case.
What I don’t understand is why you are blaming me for what was someone else’s opinion, and are now maligning me for it. Is this really fair? What I have said or done to you to deserve this?
I’ve since shut down the group and logged out all members. I don’t intend to restart it as long as this blog post by you stands. So if that was your intention, then you have succeeded. You have shut down a group that was once, at its peak, a forum for close to 1,000 free-thinking people around the world to share a wealth of information, knowledge, insight, and yes, opinion, about Indian culture. I would rather do that than be blamed for (1) Another person’s offensive opinion; (2) Being accused of banning you, when that was most certainly not done; and (3) Being accused of promoting pornography of all things via a site on Indian culture.
I don’t know whether you will even read this, or permit this comment to be posted–and that’s your privilege. But I really don’t see what else I can do. The choice is now your’s. I leave it in your hands, and have said so to other members on my Readerswrite page at my blog as well: As long as your blog post stands and continues blaming me unfairly and incorrectly for things I did not do, I will not continue the Epic India group again.
Best wishes,
Ashok K. Banker
Dear Mr Banker:
I do apologise, but I’ve only just come back from a weekend away. It is Sunday evening in Singapore as I write this.
I’m very happy to hear that you agree that the moderator’s behaviour was unacceptable. As to whether I know you wouldn’t condone such behaviour (”!”) … well, I don’t know you, so no, I don’t know if you would. It’s nice that you say you don’t.
Secondly, I am not blaming you for someone else’s opinion. I admit I maligned the moderators by calling them “lying, immature hypocrites”, and know that I was generalising because there was no one target to fixate on. You will note, I hope, that I did not call YOU lying, immature or a hypocrite. Moreover, I did not say that this is All Your Fault. I merely wondered about your reaction to your moderator’s behaviour. (This can best be exemplified by the sentence beginning “I wonder what he would think…”.)
Having said that, do I think you bear some responsibility for this? Now that you’ve brought up the subject, and I’ve had time to think about it … yes, I do, in an indirect way. And I readily concede that this could be where our perspectives greatly differ. You see, as far as I’m concerned, if:
1) You mention on your personal website that you are starting up the Epic India Group (again); and
2) You mention that you will get to approving the memberships when you have some spare time; and
3) You state the rules of the game quite explicitly on the Yahoo group page regarding what is, and isn’t, allowed (no self-promotion, no social chit-chat, focus on cultural questions, etc.); and
4) You approve of giving certain volunteers “moderator” status; and
5) You have the authority to both assign and “sack” moderators for immoderate behaviour; and
6) You have the authority to shut down the entire group at will and log out all the members (awwwwwww);
then yes, I think you bear some responsibility towards the group. Of course, you cannot vet what each member is going to say in an email (”!”), but certainly, I think the gracious thing would have been to:
(a) apologise to the members of the group,
(b) stress that such behaviour will not be tolerated,
(c) make it known that you will be alert to any similar future complaints, and
(d) keep the group going, dammit!
I mean, either have the strength of your own convictions and sail through perils with some moral spine, or else leave the formation of a cultural group like this to other people completely.
This half-arsed “well maybe I’ll create a group, and I’ll have owner privileges, but I really don’t want to have anything to do with it, oh but I can sack people, but I really don’t want to be involved, oh hell it’s all gone to pot, I think I’ll retreat into my shell, blame the victim, and tell everyone to take a hike” is an abysmal attitude to a wonderful idea, which makes me think that perhaps you are not yet ready to properly implement it.
I’m thinking of having a banner made up for myself that I can post on my blog: “I closed Ashok Banker’s Epic India Group the Second!”. What do you think?
Actually, I did apologize to the members of the group–and to you, and to Rajani (the member whom you felt had been treated badly) but you didn’t stick around to read the apology.
I did stress that such behaviour would not be tolerated.
I have made it known I will be alert to any similar future complaints–even in this case, I responded within a day.
As for keeping the group going, as I said it is for members–that includes you. If you have a major grouse with, as you clearly do, then what’s the point of keeping it going? It’s not called the ‘Ashok Banker’ group, remember!
Owner privileges are all fine and well, and I never said I don’t want anything to do with it–aren’t I taking full responsibility now? I kept putting “sack” in quotes because it’s not really sacking in the true sense. I can only request people and they can either cooperate or not. I can’t control what they do or say, just as I can’t control what you do or say.
I’m by no means retreating into my shell. You can see from my Readerswrite Page that I respond to every reader comment, and have done so, for years now, with over 15,000 readers, some of whom are in touch with me daily. I often respond within seconds, rarely within days. I’m probably the most accessible author in India.
I definitely didn’t blame the victim! In fact, the victim is still very much in touch with me, has understood and appreciated the problem with the anonymous “Moderator” and has been mature and sensible enough to know that I did the best I could.
I haven’t told anyone to take a hike. In fact, I’ve asked you to take responsibility for yourself. If you feel that storming off from a group after a single person makes a single bad comment, well, that’s your choice. But not even sticking around for an apology, and not accepting it…well, that’s also your choice.
You’re welcome to do as you please. If you’re posting that line, make it “Epic India Group the Third”. The group belongs to the members, that includes you.
If you choose to shut it down, and feel that it’s better to stop a dialogue rather than continue it, well, then that’s your choice too. You can continue blaming me forever…and call me whatever you like. But this is entirely the consequence of your words and your actions, and you ought to take responsibility for it too.
In fact, I’ll throw a challenge to you: Come back, and manage the group yourself. Put your money where your mouth is. I managed discussions between close to 1,000 people, many of whom were rabidly discordant, for over three years, while managing a full-time career and family and numerous other responsibilities. I’m now challenging you to prove that you’re a fairer and better group owner than I am. Run Epic India group and prove that you can do it better than I did through those 20,000 posts, 3 years, and 1,000 members.
Or you can retreat into your shell–after all, you were the one who ran from the group the moment someone said something you didn’t approve of, blame me, trumpet that you shut the group down, say we Indians are all a-holes, and say you don’t really want to be involved.
Time to step up or shut up.
Ashok
Dear Ms.Augustin,
I’ve been following the whole controversy about the Epic India Group and I’m starting to think that the whole thing has gone WAY too far. Considering that it was my question that started this whole hullaballoo, I think I have some responsibility to speak up here.
I really appreciate the way you spoke up against the “moderator”(Ironic, since she was anything but “moderate”) of the group and totally agree with your point. However, I also communicated with Mr.Banker and was very happy with his response. I do not blame him for the actions/words of the volunteer “moderator”. As for the latter, I guess you can find unreasonable, pig-headed individuals in any group/forum and they have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
The whole point is that I want the group to restart. It was a good thing and if we let it shut down, it means the bad elements win. So could you please do what is needed?
My dearest Mr Banker:
You are making the same mistake all over again, I fear. I am not fit to be moderator of the group for two reasons:
1) I know exceedingly little about Indian epic literature,
2) I know nothing of any of the Indian languages (a somewhat important requirement for a moderator of Indian culture, I would’ve thought),
Three. Three reasons. I am not fit to be moderator for three reasons:
3) and please forgive me for saying this, but Indian epic literature is not one of my obsessions, merely a casual interest (now effectively extinguished, alas), and
No! Four! Four reasons! Among the reasons I am not fit to be moderator of the group are:
4) you don’t know that I won’t turn out worse than the other Moderator. In fact, handling the issue as if this was a pissing competition (”put your money where your mouth is”, “time to step up or shut up”) is also exactly wrong, as it is a challenge to the worst in our characters, not the best. I choose, however you wish to see it, to demur.
Mr Banker, let me be very plain. I was not insulting a billion Indians by calling them arseholes. (This is the blog of a romance author; we can be plain-spoken here.) That would be very silly, considering I have some Indian blood running through my own veins. I was not even insulting you. I was actually insulting your approach to the Epic India Group that you have ownership/administrative rights of. (Damn, a dangling participle, but you know what I mean.)
Look, I’ve really had fun with this. You don’t know me very well (why should you?), but my friends — those mischievous scoundrels — know (and have commented) on how much I must be enjoying myself over this, and I really do thank you for that. So much of my correspondence is quite serious and/or time-critical that it’s nice to have the opportunity to shift gears from time to time. But I’m sure you have another long stretch of work in front of you, as do I (although not to even the smallest degree of fame approaching yours, I assure you) so let’s leave it at that.
Rajani, it was lovely hearing from you.
With most cordial and heartfelt felicitations, I remain your amused heckler,
KS Augustin
POSTSCRIPT: Yep, “The Spanish Inquisition”. A classic!